tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post7862178589803085333..comments2023-12-13T02:33:17.624-08:00Comments on Lee Charles Kelley: Some Myths About BehaviorismLCKhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04182376640295763312noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-69643254314710378432009-10-01T11:07:25.210-07:002009-10-01T11:07:25.210-07:00Progress report: the dog whos owner I have suggest...Progress report: the dog whos owner I have suggested do the pushing exercise is already much calmer after 3 times in 5 or 6 days. She had some excessive affection happening and would grab your arm with her mouth to pull you to her. Yesterday when I visitted was the first time she just sat and looked at me with happiness with no instruction from her owner. After a short while she nosed my hand to get me to pat her.<br /><br />Its great to see how it works every time.Margotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-43633700955754219792009-09-27T22:05:41.566-07:002009-09-27T22:05:41.566-07:00Well said boywonder. I often try to explain the pu...Well said boywonder. I often try to explain the pushing exercise to people but it is tough. I say that it seems you are working on something completely unrelated but the issue you are trying to resolve just gets fixed. Your words are much better, will use.Margotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-24098156676566212792009-07-12T14:56:46.717-07:002009-07-12T14:56:46.717-07:00I just want to hop in here real quick. I have a d...I just want to hop in here real quick. I have a dog named Roxy who is aggressive towards other dogs, and fearful of new people. I've tried both the Cesar Millan dominance stuff, which is how I was taught to work with dogs based on the first trainer I worked with. And then moved on to positive reinforcement when Roxy was becoming more aggressive as a result of the dominance work.<br /><br />Well, I've been working with her now for the past 3 years. And you know what? 3 days with Kevin Behan using these methods that Lee is talking about and she's already showing amazing shifts. All because he's changing her emotional state. Not because he's rewarding her for good or desirable behavior, or correcting her for undesirable behavior a la Cesar.<br /><br />To give a specific example of how holistic this process is, Roxy has always been whiny and "anxious" in the car. As soon as she hops in, the whining starts, and the excitability would ensue. And it wouldn't stop until the car would get up to highway speed. Well, we had been working with Kevin for 2 days, and then decided to take a drive to explore Vermont with our other 2 dogs too. So we get in the van, and not a peep from Roxy. Her body was SO soft and relaxed, and she was so calm and settled. She just sat in her seat for the entire trip, which was in total about 8 hours. Then, when we got back at night, the dogs in the barn started barking, and our 2 other dogs started barking back at them. But Roxy didn't make a peep. She just sat there, calmly observing what was going on around her.<br /><br />I share this because when you work with changing the dog's emotions, other problems seem to go away. You're not treating a symptom or a specific behavior with this method. You're treating the whole dog. Dogs already know what to do, but we corrupt them. And the more we try to "correct" the individual problems, the more problems we create. We didn't work with Roxy's specific behavior in the car. But that behavior went away as a result of working with her deeper issues. <br /><br />I know it's really hard to distinguish between the idea of using positive reinforcement or rewards such as toys vs engaging a dog's drive and then letting him bite something. But there is a huge difference. Seems like semantics. But believe me, after what I've been seeing and experiencing firsthand on Kevin's farm, the difference couldn't be greater.Sang Kohhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10830622992309114927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-20618347589047194402009-07-09T07:54:24.413-07:002009-07-09T07:54:24.413-07:00Skibum wrote: "I plan to keep reading the inf...Skibum wrote: "I plan to keep reading the info here and see what more I can learn and try."<br /><br />Neil Sattin's dog Nola had some behavioral problems similar to what you're experiencing with your Portagee. If I were you I'd check out some of his posts on aggression, and on playing tug. <br /><br />Have you tried the pushing exercise?<br /><br />If not read "An Open Letter to New York Dog Trainers," and "How to Do the Pushing Exercise," here on my blog.<br /><br />Also Neil's DVDs are now available. They could be tremendously helpful. Go to Neil's blog, or to my website, to read more and to order them if you want.<br /><br />As for walking 3 dogs together, you kind of have to train each one separately to walk next to you. One thing that might also work is to constantly talk to them and praise them as you're walking. Occasionally throw in a game of chase or an about turn to keep their energy focused on you.<br /><br />Best of luck,<br />LCKLCKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04182376640295763312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-68628230993183288782009-07-09T07:47:34.286-07:002009-07-09T07:47:34.286-07:00Teri wrote: "I find a lot of what you say ver...Teri wrote: "I find a lot of what you say very interesting with some great ideas but I admit to being confused as to why you would think that fulfilling the dog's prey instinct with tug toys, playing etc. is really all that much different from the premise of +R training?"<br /><br />There are two pieces to this.<br /><br />1) Training<br /><br />On a certain, surface level you're right. One of the problems though is that on the most basic, and most important level, neither a tug toy nor a liver treat is a reinforcer. The positive reinforcement for all behavior and learning comes through changes in the dog's energy state via release of internal tension. Things like treats and praise and petting and tennis balls are only means to achieve that end. But essentially the best, most complete forms of learning come through whatever is most effective at releasing the dog's tension at any given moment.<br /><br />Remember, dogs have only had a few hundred years of being house pets. Before that they worked for a living, using their prey drive. Before that, they <i>had</i> to work for a living because they weren't dogs. And the prey drive in canines works very specifically on principles of tension and release. <br /><br />Hunting large prey animals is risky, so the wolf's (or coyote's) survival instinct overrides the hunting instinct until the tension and pressure builds to the point that they <i>have</i> to leave the safety of the den to go out and hunt. Nature has designed things so that the ultimate tension release for canines comes through biting a prey object.<br /><br />So when +R trainers believe there's no difference between food and a tennis ball, they're missing the most important element of learning for dogs: releasing internal tension by biting a toy.<br /><br />This brings us back to search-and-rescue dogs. If there were no difference between food and tug toys in terms of their place in the general category of "reinforcer" why can't working dogs be trained successfully with treats and clickers alone? Why can't monkeys and cats be trained to search disaster sites?<br /><br />The 2nd part of the problem with behavioral science techniques doesn't really relate to your question because it has to do with solving behavioral problems. But in the article I did make the point that McConnell is better at this than Dodman because she incorporates obedience skills -- which are predatory motor patterns -- into her protocols. So once again, her effectiveness is at least partially related to using the prey drive, albeit unconsciously. <br /><br />I hope this helps!LCKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04182376640295763312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-59238658633070363222009-07-09T07:01:49.477-07:002009-07-09T07:01:49.477-07:00Lee, Like most things in life one solution doesn’t...Lee, Like most things in life one solution doesn’t work for all. I have a challenging Portuguese water dog and am looking for new things to try and approaches to take to work on his aggressive behaviour (very protective of the door and fence line in backyard). Being the “pack leader” or dominant (have ever you look at it) is having very limited success. I have been working on positive rewards and it has some good results in getting his aggressive behaviour under control on the walks. Still reacts badly to some dogs we pass. <br /><br />I am taking some good things from the information you have posted. With 3 dogs in the house now is it ok to have community play time or do we need to do this one on one with the dogs (which will be a challenge). The other 2 dogs are 20 lbs vs the 60 lb PWD. Fact is that Cosmo is incredibility tolerant of his little brother. Cosmo is 3, Luke is 1 and our latest addition to the pack (my daughter’s dog) is 2. The smaller ones are both Cockapoos and both want to tug on the walks which I don’t want. I have tried a gentle leader on both Cosmo and Luke with good success although neither dog is really fond of wearing them.<br /><br />Thanks for the info and insight. I plan to keep reading the info here and see what more I can learn and try.Skibumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17677264894694594912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-29328057849561129152009-07-09T00:40:59.159-07:002009-07-09T00:40:59.159-07:00I find a lot of what you say very interesting with...I find a lot of what you say very interesting with some great ideas but I admit to being confused as to why you would think that fulfilling the dog's prey instinct with tug toys, playing etc. is really all that much different from the premise of +R training? I totally agree that using food treats has become waaayyy overused and in fact my own dog (very prey driven black lab who is not very food motivated) improved his skills tremendously when I moved from food rewards to playing tug as a reward. But really aren't they both rewards/motivations for presenting the behaviours that we want? <br /><br />I really think we all need to throw out the cookie cutter, one method works better then all others and move towards a balance of methods (and yes, I think that sometimes can include some "negative" methods) that work for each individual dog. My lab is prey driven and very energetic. The same can be said for my mom's dog who is a full littermate to mine. Yet each dog needs to be handled quite a bit differently for him to reach his best "self" (for lack of a better word). <br /><br />PS - I have great respect for Patricia McConnell and think she has some fabulous insights into training, loving and living with our furry friends.Terinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-18866933566357257572009-07-08T16:37:38.164-07:002009-07-08T16:37:38.164-07:00You have to be careful about following Millan'...You have to be careful about following Millan's example. Much of the stuff he does with dogs only works temporarily because it essentially puts the lid on a dog's energy. That kind of pressure builds and either explodes at a critical moment or else it quietly eats away at the dog's biological system. Repressed emotions cause cancer and all sorts of other health problems.<br /><br />Please be careful what you take away from CM and what you leave behind.<br /><br />LCKLCKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04182376640295763312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8164371574062741084.post-87578269492215950882009-07-08T13:10:23.341-07:002009-07-08T13:10:23.341-07:00Lee, as always I love your thoughts about dogs and...Lee, as always I love your thoughts about dogs and their training... (although I AM a Cesar Milan fan as well...) Everything you say just makes so much sense. I'm on a constant search of how to help my dogs... Thanks!Karen Brimhallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03327275248583388997noreply@blogger.com