Comments on Lee Charles Kelley: Positive Mental Associations v. Reduction of Tensi...

Hi John,While Lee's response is so much more eloqu...

2008-07-20T10:36:00.000-07:00

Hi John,
While Lee's response is so much more eloquent than mine, I had to give my 2 cents since my experience with my aggressive dogs flies in the face of your theories.

I totally agree with you that our relationships with our dogs take work, patience and a building of trust.

My relationship with my dogs is always my number one goal...otherwise, I probably wouldn't have dogs. My dogs have all been rescues, too, so they did not have the best start in life.

Today, they are happy and motivated not only to 'work' ( we do obedience and agility-which is done off leash so you need a good connection) but to simply be with me. Our walks off leash now are silent meditations. I hardly have to speak to them. We walk together or sometimes they walk ahead and wait for me. I can call them out of any situation with one, quiet command (mid chase, playing with other dogs, etc.). They are calm in the house and greet all people politely. I can take them anywhere and do. AND, I use a prong AND e-collar (Lee, I realize you don't approve of this tool, and that could be another conversation, but its effectiveness with Roman cannot be denied-he needed that shock to his system off leash and it actually had a calming effect). I won't go into the mechanics but I will say that every dog handler team is different. My GSD responded best with the the prong, then I added the ecollar for our off leash work.He used to charge dogs and the ecollar was the best tool to help me redirect his energy. The result was a dog that no longer charges, turns on a dime with a recall and he does this with joy...not fear of being 'demeaned'. Why? Because I chose the appropriate tool to help him and used it appropriately/fairly. The e collar (and prong) actually helped us communicate better, imagine that!

There is no doubt in anyone's eyes that my dogs adore me. Using these tools has helped us and led to the dogs having the freedom they do today. These dogs were neglected, unsocialized and dog aggressive! Today, we meet 20-50 dogs a day, they do humane education in classrooms, and they both have their CGC and TT.

Part of my responsibility in caring for my dogs is helping them be in harmony with their world. I want them to have as much freedom as possible. The prong/ecollars were tools I used but I was never focused on the tool, as many people are. I was/am focused on my dogs, who they are and what they/we need to communicate. If the prong/ ecollar are so bad, then why are my dogs so happy and free? Why are tons of people asking ME (just an average Jane) how did I get my aggressive dogs to be so good? I invite you to visit my blog to see pics of them happily romping at the beach with tons of dogs...something I probably could not do without the help of a prong/ecollar.

Suzanne Clothier says it better (and I consider her a relationship trainer):
Understanding training principles & applying them with skill is important - love alone isn't enough . Don’t drown in technical know-how and forget the heart & soul of the relationship, but also don’t sacrifice good technique for pure emotional involvement. Balance is important, and technical proficiency can help smooth the way for the kind of profound relationship you want. Remember, solid training skills are actually solid communication skills, and clear communication is critical to a healthy relationship.
"

When we went to the beach the other day, I realized I forgot to put collars on the dogs. They were naked. ( I did have their leashes, which I always carry and never use). I decided to take them on the walk anyway and it was uneventful and profound at the same time. Two dogs and a human, choosing to experience nature, together.

It's funny how often people who read Kevin's book ...

2008-07-18T20:00:00.000-07:00

It's funny how often people who read Kevin's book need to come back to it later to embrace it. It was the same for me, and I know it was for you as well Lee.

I just wanted to add something as far as the prong collar goes. If you follow football, you'll know that when the game's about to start, all the players run onto the field and are incredibly fired up. There is such an emotional high, and a lot of "aggressive" unfocused energy just waiting to explode. You can see it on the players' faces and in their body language. They'll tend to move around a lot, shaking their limbs and loosening up, but at the same time, giving themselves an outlet for that pent up energy since it needs a place to go.

Usually the team that wins the coin toss will opt to play defense first. Why? Because the players are so fired up with overwhelming emotions, that they aren't in the proper state of mind to play offense efficiently. They always make mention of the fact that the players don't settle down enough to be focused until they've put in a few good hits. After they get in some good licks, the game starts to get into a rhythm and a flow, as the players have diffused their energy by hitting each other, and now they're ready to focus on the game at hand.

I've always found an interesting correlation between this and dogs that become super energized and lose focus. When they're emotionally overloaded, they need that "hit", like a football player, to help snap them into focus. And then once they get that, they can have laser like focus and have all their emotions flowing through the right channels.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but you can probably tell I watch a lot of football:)

S’s M: “Sorry John I, I think you're comparing app...

2008-07-18T11:35:00.000-07:00

S’s M: “Sorry John I, I think you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing my relationship with my dog with my relationships with HUMANS.”

More like comparing apples to banana cream pie.

S’s M: “…dogs view the world through the perspective of energy - how some things reflect energy better than others, how to release their own energy, how to maintain balance through keeping the energies around them in balance. … I agree about the halti and the e-collar - that they cause discomfort in the first, and unnecessary additional agitated energy in the second. But I do like the prong because it does what its supposed to do - it gets the dog's attention, and then you can do something to redirect her energy.”

This is exceptionally well put.

BW: “Since I’ve been working with NDT, Roxy has gotten so much better. She’s calmer, more relaxed, and just overall happier than she used to be. And our relationship is stronger than it’s ever been. She trusts me 100%, and we have an incredibly strong bond. If a strong relationship is the goal, then I can’t recommend anything but Natural Dog Training. Not only will you have an incredibly strong relationship, but you’ll also have an incredibly well trained dog too:)”

Well, BW, if this “John L.” is who I think he is, my impression is that he’s someone who’s not part of the +R camp, and clearly not part of the dominance group. He told me once via e-mail that he'd glanced through a few chapters of Natural Dog Training but got hung up on the idea of using prong collars so he stopped reading, but not before sending me an acid-filled e-mail excoriating their use. (As a result I had to ask him not to write to me anymore, and spam filtered him.)

My impression is that he’s still attracted to the main principles behind NDT (why else would he be showing up here?), but he’s too attached to the idea that training is about “relating” to the dog. And that would be fine, I suppose, as long as you’re relating to the dog through her emotions and her energy, not through ideas like what’s “demeaning” to a dog, or how a dog is supposedly able to think logically, or learn through imitation, etc. He appears to be emotionally hung up on that stuff. And as I’ve said many times, you simply can NOT understand NDT through these three other paradigms. (Oddly, enough, Kevin even wrote about the drawbacks of using the relationship model of training back in 1993.)

So, John, go back and read the whole book. Then put it away for a couple of months (or years), and pick it up and read it again. Here’s what you’ll find: that you’ve already “discovered for yourself” that Kevin’s ideas and methodology are right on the money.

Years ago I wrote a little pamphlet called “No Bad Dogs, Just Bad Trainers,” which was a precis of Kevin's ideas, filtered through my sensibilities. It was available at pet shops and bookstores in Manhattan. Someone gave a copy to a fashion photographer named Brion Something-or-Other, who had grown tired of that world and had become interested in dog training. His training was informed at the time by the pack leader model, so when he read my pamphlet he thought practically everything I said was total bullshit.

Cut to 7 years later, he’s moving and is going through some old boxes and finds the pamphlet again, and glances through it. He’s stunned. He now agrees with nearly everything I’ve written. So he calls to tell he this. He also told me he had a book coming out (a combo dog training/photo book) in which he recommends that people with dogs who like to hunt squirrels might consider doing what I did with Freddie—hunt squirrels WITH their dogs.

Sadly he quickly devolved into his own Karen Pryor phase (which may last another 7 years—who knows?), and now his brochures state, quite incorrectly, that there is nothing natural about teaching a dog obedience commands. Hopefully one day he’ll come across my website, or this blog, and realize that to a dog nothing is MORE natural than learning these behaviors as part of a “group hunting” dynamic.

Maybe John L. will learn that one day too.

LCK

Hey John, I understand where you’re coming from, b...

2008-07-18T10:43:00.000-07:00

Hey John, I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s important to make the distinction between the principles of using a tool such as a prong collar in NDT to redirect and channel drive, versus using it as a subversive tool from the old school of dominance training. I’ve been through that ideology of dominance and submission, but I’ve also been through the +R school of thought too, and as a result I have a pretty broad view and perspective of the dog training world, as well as a pretty open mind.

Just to give some context, I have 3 dogs, and each one is completely different from the other. One is a 5 year old Lab/Flat Coat mix who is the gentlest dog you’ll ever have the pleasure of meeting. The second is a Whippet/Pointer mix who has a strong healthy drive and loves to chase anything that moves, but is also very emotionally sensitive. The third, well everyone on here knows all about the third. She’s a 40 lb terrier mix who has incredibly intense drive and energy and is incredibly dog reactive. She’ll try to “attack” any dog she sees. Well, at least she used to. And just to make things interesting, she’s also fearful of new people too. A very fun combination. I point this out just as a point of reference of the different types of personalities and temperaments I deal with on a daily basis.

So back on topic. When it comes to things like prong collars, I definitely don’t need to use one on my 2 dogs Delta and Jackie. Delta is generally a very relaxed dog that likes to just sniff around a lot, and Jackie is excitable and drivey, but also emotionally sensitive and easy to refocus with other methods. But Roxy has a combination of a low emotional threshold and a ton of drive. She can only handle so much stimuli before she gets overwhelmed and needs to offload onto something. If I were using dominance based methods, I’d just correct her using something like a prong collar to, as Cesar puts it, “disagree with her behavior”. But that’s not what NDT is about. One of the things at the core of NDT is relationship building, and earning your dog’s trust. The very things that you also value. The difference in this situation between dominance training and NDT, is that in dominance based training, you would use a prong collar to deliver a correction, basically shutting the dog down emotionally. Not a pleasant experience for the person or the dog. In NDT, you use it as a stimulus to redirect that flow of energy into something positive, like playing tug or biting a stick or jumping up on you. You might say, well then, why not just play with the dog in that moment instead of using a prong collar first? For a lot of dogs that would be fine, including my own Delta and Jackie. But I don’t know if you’ve ever dealt with a dog like a Summer or a Roxy, but they NEED that kind of stimulation from a prong collar to redirect their focus and energy back to you and into something positive. Believe me, when you see it in person, you’d change your viewpoint. When I need to give Roxy that type of redirection with a prong, she goes from feeling overwhelmed and frantic, emotions that aren’t positive for dogs or humans, to energized and happy. She doesn’t want to feel overwhelmed and frantic. But she can’t help it. So in the context of NDT, my job is to help turn that frantic energy into something positive, by helping her release that stress and tension. And the best way to do that is to let her be a dog and bite something, like her ball usually, or a tug toy. And if it works out really well, she’ll take that toy and snap its proverbial neck, like a good terrier should. After that, she’s totally calm, relaxed, and confident. She struts around next to me like she’s the queen of the neighborhood. Tell me that isn’t a good thing:)

Since I’ve been working with NDT, Roxy has gotten so much better. She’s calmer, more relaxed, and just overall happier than she used to be. And our relationship is stronger than it’s ever been. She trusts me 100%, and we have an incredibly strong bond. If a strong relationship is the goal, then I can’t recommend anything but Natural Dog Training. Not only will you have an incredibly strong relationship, but you’ll also have an incredibly well trained dog too:)

I think you're missing the points that have been m...

2008-07-18T07:52:00.000-07:00

I think you're missing the points that have been made here, John. By a country mile.

JL:"If I were a dog and my handler used anything like a prong collar, halti, or electronic collar, well, then I guess I wouldn't want to stand next to or give attention to my master, either."

I agree about the halti and the electronic collar. But as for the prong, you're seemingly talking about Summer, and you're not only taking her behavior entirely out of context, you don't have even the slightest idea of what her focus (or lack of it) was like before we started using the prong. I can guarantee you that if you saw her behavior with her owner before she started training with me – how almost panicky and at times uncontrollably aggressive she was -- and compared it to her behavior now -- how focused, obedient, and just plain crazy in love she is with her owner -- you'd be forced to eat your words.

JL: "After all, my best friend is saying, “Do what I say or I will hurt or demean you.”

Sorry, I have to laugh at this. How can a dog feel demeaned? That's a complex human emotion, one which requires conscious thought, self-reflection and a clear self-image.

JL: "Funny how I have seen many trainers wrap the prong collar around their arm and put pressure on the pins and then say 'you see, it doesn't hurt the dog and it is more effective than a choke.'"

No one here is comparing it to a choke collar, except to say that it's less harmful to the dog physically.

JL: "Why use a prong collar or a choke anyway? It isn't necessary. I know I would be quite anxious and, through time, possibly become agitated looking for some release."

Yes, we can see that you're agitated now, John. And you're seeking release here.

JL: "I have seen dogs extend this release to people, other animals, children, vehicles, and even their owners.”

No you haven’t. You may believe you have, but you have no idea what we’re discussing here. You’re lumping this discussion into two old, outdated paradigms: dominance and +R. This is something you can’t understand from the outside in. It’s just not possible. You have to see the principles in action before you can possibly make any sort of judgment about what we’re discussing.

JL: “it might possibly lead to the difficult decision to end his life because he bit someone."

That's pure +R propaganda. Look, I've been doing this for over 15 years and I've never seen a prong collar cause a dog to become aggressive. In fact, it’s always had just the opposite result.

Once again, the prong is not for all dogs. I'd never recommend using one with Henry, for example. But it was the only way to control Summer's energy. I'd like to know how you'd do that with a dog who has no focus, who's stronger than her owner, and who shows no interest in food treats outdoors.

JL: "Any relationship is a long-term building of trust and respect, those who want to be followed must earn that and not demand it."

I don't think anyone here wants "to be followed," John. That's not our agenda with our dogs. I'm curious as to why you think it's part of the Natural Dog Training paradigm.

As for Angie, Summer's Mommy, and Boywunder, I think they're probably all champing at the bit to tell you how powerfully NTD has changed their relationships with their dogs for the better. Everyone who really understands and applies this system would agree.

JL: "Metaphorically speaking, if you put a prong collar on your husband during your first date, do you think he would have asked for a second date?"

You never know. Some guys might go for that kind of thing. You can't really sum up all of human (or canine) behavior or relationships in such simple terms.

JL: "Relationships take work and quite a bit of patience and understanding. We cannot expect our relationship partners, regardless whether it be dog or human, to accept us until we look at ourselves first."

I agree. And that's one of the current themes in the comments section of my last post, that much of your dog's behavior is based on things that you're unaware of. But I'm not sure you and I are talking about that from the same angle. Your agenda seems to be to take the pulpit and preach against the prong collar. And it's misguided. It's particularly misguided since no one here is preaching FOR the prong collar. We're just pointing out that it's not the bugaboo it's being made out to be by those in the +R field.

JL: "Your dog will not look at you until you are worth looking at and the prong collar is not the way to get to that point with your dog."

That sounds an awful lot like a hard-and-fast rule, but the truth is it depends on the dog. I'm not kidding when I say that I've seen dogs whose energy was spinning out of control, and yet the minute I put the prong collar on them they became more relaxed, and much more focused. It’s a real, “Thanks, I needed that moment.”

This is based on sound psychological principles, too. It’s not something that comes out of a vacuum or is being presented as a way of disguising dominance techniques. Since I assume you've never used a prong collar on such a dog I'd have to question where you get your information: from personal hands-on professional training experience, or from the +R book of talking points?

If you were to re-read all the posts here thoroughly, and do so with an open mind, or even just with the tentative presumption that maybe I know what the hell I'm talking about, and that I don't take these things (or any other important issues about dog training) lightly, you might come away from this with a different view.

Also, this really isn't an US v. THEM debate between devotees of Natural Dog Training and all practitioners of "reward-based," "dog-friendly," or "positive-only" training. None of us are punishment-crazed dominance trainers. I think we all recognize the value of rewards, the need for being dog friendly, and value of positive reinforcements. We just also recognize that canine behavior isn't as cut and dried as the behavior of rats in a maze. Since dogs are much more complex creatures than rats there are gray areas that the +R movement doesn't understand or communicate well with dogs yet.

But I'm glad you mentioned the halti up top. If any device should be banned, it should be the "gentle" leader (etc.), not the prong collar. Most, if not all dogs would clearly prefer wearing the latter.

LCK

Sorry John I, I think you're comparing apples to o...

2008-07-18T07:21:00.000-07:00

Sorry John I, I think you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing my relationship with my dog with my relationships with HUMANS.

The last time I checked, my dog isn't HUMAN. I believe that dogs view the world through the perspective of energy - how some things reflect energy better than others, how to release their own energy, how to maintain balance through keeping the energies around them in balance. Putting your dog's emotional state through words a human might use is anthropomorphizing her. I agree about the halti and the e-collar - that they cause discomfort in the first, and unnecessary additional agitated energy in the second. But I do like the prong because it does what its supposed to do - it gets the dog's attention, and then you can do something to redirect her energy.

If you have the kind of dog that never gets distracted by outside stimuli, good for you. YOu're lucky. The rest of us are handling tricky dogs who have lots of drive or energy that they need to offload all the time. Even the most attentive high drive dog will find himself diverted to something of interest that's NOT his handler.

If I were a dog and my handler used anything like ...

2008-07-17T19:33:00.000-07:00

If I were a dog and my handler used anything like a prong collar, halti, or electronic collar, well, then I guess I wouldn't want to stand next to or give attention to my master, either. After all, my best friend is saying, “Do what I say or I will hurt or demean you.”

Funny how I have seen many trainers wrap the prong collar around their arm and put pressure on the pins and then say "you see, it doesn't hurt the dog and it is more effective than a choke." I get a kick out of that. Why use a prong collar or a choke anyway? It isn't necessary. I know I would be quite anxious and, through time, possibly become agitated looking for some release.

I have seen dogs extend this release to people, other animals, children, vehicles, and even their owners. All of those types of training collars do compromise your dog’s freedom and yours, and worse yet it might possibly lead to the difficult decision to end his life because he bit someone.

Any relationship is a long-term building of trust and respect, those who want to be followed must earn that and not demand it. Metaphorically speaking, if you put a prong collar on your husband during your first date, do you think he would have asked for a second date? I seriously doubt it!

Relationships take work and quite a bit of patience and understanding. We cannot expect our relationship partners, regardless whether it be dog or human, to accept us until we look at ourselves first. Your dog will not look at you until you are worth looking at and the prong collar is not the way to get to that point with your dog.

No. I read the Barwig & Hilliard book. That one go...

2008-07-15T15:41:00.000-07:00

No. I read the Barwig & Hilliard book. That one goes back to the early 80s, I believe.

Kevin studied with some old SchutzHund master in the 1970s, by the way. It was during that period, when he heard them talking about food drive, and pack drive, and ball drive, and defensive drive, that he first realized that all relates back directly to the prey drive, that there's really only one drive.

And, I mean, come on: ball drive? I don't know how long it takes for an instinct to develop in an animal, but ball drive? Have wolves been chasing balls for thousands of years and we didn't know about it?

As for Roman, this is one of the things I've talked about a lot, in my reviews on Amazon, and on my website, and here: most aggressive dogs don't like to play tug! Once you can get them to play (and it takes work), they stop being aggressive.

LCK

Lee, have you read Schutzhund Obedience: Training ...

2008-07-15T12:06:00.000-07:00

Lee, have you read Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive by Dildei/Booth. This has been the one book that has helped me train my GSD, Roman. I just got Natural Dog Training, so I'm anxious to see how it compares.

When I first adopted Roman (and when he was at the height of his reactivity) he couldn't or wouldn't chase/retrieve a ball or play tug. Now he retrieves with such relish (even around other dogs chasing balls, something he used to be obsessed with) and loves tug...and he's no longer obsessed and his reactivity on leash is almost completely gone. I guess I was doing something right, finally, but just didn't have the words for what I was doing.

Since all obedience behaviors (or almost all of th...

2008-07-13T08:05:00.000-07:00

Since all obedience behaviors (or almost all of them) are based on predatory motor patterns, stimulating a dog's prey drive before or during training will generally give you better results. However, dogs are very context oriented. But as I say on my website, "if you train your dog while he's calm he won't know how to obey when he's in an energized state." That's probably why this trainer is having trouble in the obedience ring.

As for Premack's principle, it says that "a more probable (higher-frequency) behavior can be used to condition a less probable (lower-frequency) behavior." However, some researchers have tested this and found that more probable behaviors don't necessarily have an effect on the reliability of less probable ones. So it isn't that the principle itself is flawed, it's all in how it's worded. How should it be worded?

A more emotionally satisfying behavior can be used to train a dog to reliably produce a less satisfying behavior. This means that when you link something that the dog really loves to do -- like chasing a ball -- with something he's not that crazy about -- lying down on command -- you get a dog who loves lying down on command.

I mean, it's pretty damn simple. The idea has just been mangled by trying to force it to fit into "scientific" language. I mean, these are people who refer to toys as "manipulanda..."

LCK

Hey Summer's Mommy, definitely let us know when th...

2008-07-12T22:17:00.000-07:00

Hey Summer's Mommy, definitely let us know when those vids are posted. I'd love to see them.

Something to look forward to at work on Monday:)

That's the thing about this incident. I just read ...

2008-07-12T11:43:00.000-07:00

That's the thing about this incident. I just read a post by her in another forum when she talks about how she can successfully teach at least 95% of dogs loose leash walking in a week using her clicker methods. Then she goes into talking about it sometimes not working, and very often it happens in the competition ring. (Pressure? STress?) But the way I see it, if you work in drive and you hone the natural instinct into working an obedience behavior wiht you, you WON'T fail? Right? Or am i getting this wrong?

This morning when we worked in the Heel Off Leash exercise, Summer swung out to my right side as I did a right turn instead of keeping on my left. Tyril my current trainer said not to worry, she just wasn't as up in drive, but that is something we can work on. The good thing is, is that I managed to swing her back into the left pocket, and we made a great about turn with her driving at me. I can't imagine how I could get that level of drive in her using just a clicker and treats and "reinforcing" the position. She already KNOWS the position. I've been taking ONLY to giving her a piece of food when she walks into the left pocket on her own, and hardly ever on the right side. By their standards, she should already KNOW that the left pocket is intrinsically "reinforcing". Yet she wandered to the right today. So my take on that is her drive dropped at that point, and it was my fault by not engaging her drive enough offleash. (If you see the video which I'll post and email you the link for on monday, hte moment her drive dropped was when I made a left turn right before she fudged, and my body movement must have dropped it... I'm going to work on turning left and leaning my body a little ot the right as I turn to make that more of an inviting space... I think that would help a lot.) It's funny, but Tyril said that the right turn is harder to teach, but once a dog's in drive, it's easier to do than the left turn. The left turn can be very pressuring for the dog, and now I see why...

I'll have to read up on Premack's principle. The +R trainers like to reference that. I should learn what it is. Do you have an essay about debunking it? I'd like to read it.

Thanks again Lee! between you and Tyril and books like Kevin's and websites like yours and Neil's, I feel like I am a more kick-a-- handler than I could ever dream I'd become!!

(I'm tootin' your horn now - I have people introducing me to their friends/family from not around here like this, "This is Jacinta, this is her dog Summer who is the best trained dog in teh park." WOOT!)

I wrote a very long, very eloquent answer to this ...

2008-07-12T11:25:00.000-07:00

I wrote a very long, very eloquent answer to this comment, involving Premack's principle, how it's been proven false, and why, and how the +R ideology, particularly the strain I like to call "Pryorism" has a built-in fudge factor for situations like this (when it works it's all due to the clicker, when it doesn't work, you need to up the value of your treats). But I lost my internet connection and lost the entire thing!

So let me just encapsulate my basic points:

It's possible that clicker training was responsible for what the dog did, but it's very unlikely. Why? Because

ALL OBEDIENCE BEHAVIORS ARE ANALOGUES TO THE PREDATORY MOTOR PATTERNS FOUND IN WILD WOLVES

So whether this woman was aware of it or not, when she taught her dog to heel, even if she didn't use a Frisbee or a quick game of tug as a motivator and reward for heeling, she still ACCIDENTALLY tapped into her dog's prey drive while doing it.

Also, as Kevin Behan says

A DOG IS ATTRACTED TO HIS OWNER THROUGH THE PREY DRIVE

and heeling, particularly at the level you've described with this dog, requires a VERY HIGH level of attraction or the dog will "lose interest" (i.e., lose his drive).

You can't explain any of this to a true Pryorite, though, so don't bother. But this event had very little to do with clicker training and almost everything to do with the dog accessing his prey drive on his own, without his owner's help or knowledge, and plugging that drive into what his owner wanted him to do. Remember, the thing that is most emotionally satisfying to a dog is not necessarily a jackpot of treats: it's being in-synch with his owner's emotions while in a group hunting mood. In this case his prey was what was in the bait bag. And that's fine, and it might be enough to keep this particular dog (and all rabbits) safe from harm. But if one day the dog DOESN'T respond to the "high-value" jackpot trick, it will be because the owner didn't give him the real jackpot he needs, which would be a ball throw or a quick game of tug, or even a quick "Hup!"

LCK

Perfect analogy Lee! And to anyone who's intereste...

2008-07-12T10:07:00.000-07:00

Perfect analogy Lee! And to anyone who's interested, Lee is the one who introduced me to these training ideas and Kevin's book, and he's the one who suggested I try the prong. And just like him, I put it around my own neck, ha!

Sorry, didn't mean to take this into deep prong country...

Have a question about +R training and drive training. I have a friend upstate who is a fantastic person, and she's currently in Karen Pryor's academy to train as a clicker trainer. She started a forum space on her website, and I frequent that forum too. I think +R has a lot to offer in terms of the learning stage of new behaviors, and I use a lot of +R methods to teach new tricks and new moves. (But I try to work in drive to "proof" the behavior.) Anyway, one woman talked about how she was working with her dog in the heel when a rabbit jumped in front of the dog. The dog started to move his body forward a little as if to give chase, but then backed his shoulders and turned his head to his owner for a treat. So she clicked and gave him what +R trainers call the "jackpot" (lots of treats). She explained it like he remembered that food was a primary reinforcer.

But it seems to me as if chasing down a rabbit would be more primary than accepting food from a human would be... So is there something to this idea of conditioning a dog to rearranging his priorities?

I also think that it would seem like a looooong process to get that level of control using clicker training. And frankly, it would probably take Summer a helluva lot longer than another dog.

WHy is it that +R trainers feel that any physical handling with the dog will harm the relationship the handler has with the dog? Has it to do with the "hardness" of the dog? Like Summer who is a relatively "hard" dog (not hard like difficult, but hard as in can bounce back easily after being knocked over in the playground and come runnign back for more...) can take a certain level of pop, while Henry can't? (BTW I love Henry. Amanda is determined to get them both to play. Summer will just gruff and dart at him enough to get him to move away, while Henry will jump around and taunt her. It's quite funny.)

I have a ton of questions... hope that's ok!!

Before this thread becomes "Prong Central" (if it'...

2008-07-12T09:51:00.000-07:00

Before this thread becomes "Prong Central" (if it's not already too late), I should point out that when I met Summer she was the textbook definition for the kind of dog Kevin describes in NATURAL DOG TRAINING as needing to have her vibrations "dampered," the way you'd grab hold of a tuning fork to keep it from pulsating out of control. She could not focus on me or her owner.

The fact that this dog now often looks to her owner for cues on what to do next is proof, both that she needed to be given a "Thanks, I needed that!" experience (or two...), and that while those experiences may have dampered her vibrations, they didn't dampen her spirits.

A dog like Henry, on the other hand, would have shut down in an instant if he'd been worked on a prong collar. So once again, I have to make it clear that the prong collar is a potentially harmful tool if used improperly. So while none of us would use a scalpel to butter our toast, a surgeon wouldn't use a butter knife to cut open one of his patients.

LCK

Hi Lee! I used to get such nasty looks with her on...

2008-07-12T09:19:00.000-07:00

Hi Lee! I used to get such nasty looks with her on the prong, and even now, people stare at me like I'm crazy when I used my voice to interrupt her inappropriate behavior. I probably have the reputation of being the crazy dog nazi who doesn't let her dog root around in gargbage or run up too far ahead, but hey that doesn't bother me. At least I can safely say I have voice control! Sadly, it seems as if the norm in NYC is to have ill-behaved dogs and let them off leash (!!!) and then just laugh it off as, "well, my dog is just being a dog..."

I prefer to be a little more stringent in what I expect from Summer... :)

Sang, I just had a session this morning with Summer where we did a round of the CD Novice exercises, and we filmed some of it. I'll post it on youtube on Monday. My yt name is "summerinbrooklyn". There are already a few heeling exercises in there from 2 weeks ago, if anyone is interested in watching.

She was on the prong in today's session, and I used the light pops during the turns in the Figure 8 exercise. Also, I didn't film it, but right before the first exercise (Heeling on leash), I did my combo of Pushing and Hups with some cheese to get her drive up.

I find it's SOOO much easier to work her when her drive is up. I've tried building drive ONLY using food and pushing, and it's great, but whenever I combine it with light pops, I get her more energized. She's a strange dog who has spazzy drive and not the normal bore-a-hole-through-you focus of a pure bred Malinois. So it's necessary for a dog like Summer to purposely narrow her drive into a tight channel - I find using the prong does specifically that. The food and the pushing and hupping build drive and places me as the handler at the receiving end of her drive, but the pops serve to narrow down the pipeline where her builtup drive can go through, so when I DO release her, it's like WAGGH!!! Working her in this way seems to burn the behavior in her memory where it becomes the default, instead of her "choosing" to behave. Ever since I've worked her in the Heel by going back to the prong again, I find that she does her obedience behaviors with a lot more oomph, and better than anything, I catch her spontaneously looking at me for cues to what to do a whole lot often.

I totally agree with you Lee about not using a pro...

2008-07-11T10:17:00.000-07:00

I totally agree with you Lee about not using a prong, or any tool for that matter, without really knowing what you’re doing or how the use of it is going to effect your dog. I know I paid the price for that lack of knowledge and understanding. The first trainer I worked with started using them on day one of our training sessions. Looking back I realize that I should have found another trainer, but when you don’t know anything, anyone with an explanation sounds believable. Our dogs were both just happy go lucky dogs that hadn’t had any training at all before then. But he didn’t base his training on their individual personalities or needs. He just used a blanket approach that he uses on all dogs. Luckily we didn’t get our 3rd dog until later. Because of her nature and issues, I think he would have had some REALLY negative effects on her.

It’s funny because I remember watching a Schutzhund training video a few years ago, where the trainer was also using a series of light pops on the prong to put the dog in drive. But at the time, since I was taught to use the pops as a “correction” rather than as a tool to redirect drive, I didn’t quite understand it. But when I revisited that video a while back, I realized that he was doing exactly what Summer’s Mommy is doing. Context is such a critical element to understanding, isn’t it? :)

Right. I call this "Chase Me with Hidden Pops." Th...

2008-07-11T08:32:00.000-07:00

Right. I call this "Chase Me with Hidden Pops." The idea is that if you get the dog energized enough, and you get him to chase you, you can countercondition him to the sensation of getting a pop on the collar so that it becomes more of a positive motivator and energizer (as Summer's Mom describes) than a correction or punishment.

Going back to the dichotomy between Natural and +R training, there's an ideological proscription that +R trainers have against doing anything physical to the dog in training. But the genius of what Kevin has done is that he's found that physical corrections don't have to be punitive in nature. They can be quite stimulating for the dog.

When Fred was younger I had him on a prong collar, but not before I'd tried it on myself to see how it felt. And I jokiingly called it his "pleasure collar" because around that time Madonna was at the height of her popularity and was quoted as saying she likes getting spanked during sex, and not just by her partner's hand; she was apparently a fan of certain wooden apparati that she said heightened the experience for her. As a result I started calling this principle (of taking something that would normally be perceived or experienced as a punishment and turning it into a stimulating experience for dogs) as "The Madonna Love Paddles Principle."

Many people from the +R camp would be horrified at this analogy, particularly because of its connection to sexual pleasure. They'd probably also be horrified to learn that a dog's (or wolf's) prey drive is directly linked to his sexual energy. But really -- and this goes back to both Darwin and Freud -- sex and aggression are part of the same basic instinct. It's eros and thanatos, the creative urge and the desire to kill. They're two sides of the same coin. (Our prisons are full of men who "loved" their victims to death.) And when the prey drive is active, the line between what's normally painful and pleasurable is often blurred.

And while this isn't directed to you, Walkerch_5 (because Henry doesn't wear one, and he doesn't NEED one) if anyone gives you grief about seeing your dog wearing a prong collar, just tell them that it's actually a "pleasure collar!"

On second thought, maybe you shouldn't say anything at all about any of this...

And seriously: do NOT use a prong collar without knowing what you're doing and what its effect will be on the dog in question.

LCK

I just started working on heeling with Henry durin...

2008-07-11T07:59:00.000-07:00

I just started working on heeling with Henry during my last session with Lee. We started using light pops on the collar in combination with "chase me." The light pops weren't used as corrections though. The way Lee explained it to me (correct me if I'm wrong, Lee) was to actually energize Henry and get him focused on me, much in the same way that dogs nip at each other's necks to initiate play or get dogs to chase them.

I have to take the pops very slowly with Henry though, because if the pop is too hard, he shuts down. Right now, Lee suggested that I just get Henry used to the sensation of being walked on a collar (I usually walk him with a easy walk harness). Right now he's doing pretty well with heeling without the pops.

Hi there! I'm Summer's Mommy aka Summerinbrooklyn....

2008-07-10T21:50:00.000-07:00

Hi there! I'm Summer's Mommy aka Summerinbrooklyn.

I tred lightly with use of the word "correction" especially since I'm good friends with some people online who are +R clicker devotees. We don't always agree with each other, but I have to say that I don't think what I am doing is "corrective" or punitive to my dog, although some might think that I am. I prefer to think of it as a quick redirection to get her attention, and then I'm able to channel that attention and focus into a specific behavior that I know allows her to release energy. (For us, it's a HUP on the chest.) The simple act of HUPPING does wonders for Summer.

What's interesting too (and my current trainer sees it as well) is that nowadays, when I give her light pops on the prong, she actually gets more energized and it brings out her drive. She actually starts snapping her jaws and it almost looks like she's mad at me, but it's basically just drive, and once I pop her AND praise her, she channels her energy into the behavior I'm asking for. I'll give you the example of proofing her formal heel. She already knew the word meant to position her body to my left, head cocked to look at me. But sometimes she wasn't so up in drive doing it. So I put her back on the prong only for heel training, and popped it lightly especially around turns. Her drive went up exponentially, and all I did then was to praise her and remind her "HEEL!" and she rechanneled that energy into giving me a tight focused heel. I also used cheese to drive her at me. So the prong pops heightened her drive, while the cheese kept her focused, and at the end of a good heel, a HUP for the cheese allows her to release. It was the best way to teach her to heel.

There is a fine line I find between popping lightly to increase drive, and popping a hard one to drop it when needed. Thankfully, the hard pop is a lesson most dogs learn almost instantly. The secret is to immediately release the dropped drive in a way that includes the handler.

Angela, my dog doesn't charge at other dogs offleash save for an instance where she saw a dog who had attacked her mths ago, and she ran in. I've been using my keys to "shock" her out of her zone by chucking them near her front feet and immediately calling her to Heel. So that day it happened, she ran so fast I couldn't even reach her with my keys, but I managed to throw them just on the ground and yelling out SUMMER, DOWN! I knew I wouldn't get the control for a heel, but I knew I could get a down. BAM! She hit the ground. It was enough to get her focus off the dog, and then I called out COME and she did a recall. Prior to that, i had only really used the keys a few times (to redirect squirrel chasing). Now when I jingle them, I can get her attention much easier. As mentioned I used the same method to redirect squirrel stalks. Now, it's funny, when she's super drivey and anxious towards another stimulus (whether it's a friend, or a dog she wants to bumrush but I don't let her), I can call out, SUMMER,HEEL!! and a few times she's literally jumped into the heel position. (It helps that I am teaching her the Jump Finish for recall.)

She still has her days when something on the street will set her into over-alert mode and she turns frantic. Whenever that happens, if she's not reacting, I hold her leash firm, move in a new direction and ask for a HUP right after we make a turn. I find that helps too.

I'm not very verbose when it comes to the theory part of it, but in the past two years I've been working with her using drive redirection and release, she's come a long way. I can recall her on a dime, in mid play, and we're even going to start competition obedience. She got her CGC, and some time this fall, I'm going to try to get all 3 legs for her CD Novice Title.

What helps a lot is continual training, and always teaching a new behavior as well as brushing up on the existing ones. In a sense, obedience training has become a great way for Summer to collect her spazziness into a channel, and at the end of a good sequence, her drive has actually peaked in such a way that I can release her with a ball throw or just allowing her to leap on me with a good tug thrown in. I think using the prong has allowed that to happen on its own.

I DO use food a lot though, and still do, but I don't mind. I don't treat her for everything, but I do treat her for spontaneous formal heeling on streets to keep her drive up.

It's so interesting how certain techniques and met...

2008-07-10T14:09:00.000-07:00

It's so interesting how certain techniques and methods can turn you off to things when they're used and applied either in a heavy handed way, or in the wrong context.

The first trainer I worked with was a dominance based trainer, and he used the prong collar extensively. He used it for everything from walking on a loose leash, to teaching the "place" command. Why he felt the need to use it for teaching "place", I still have no idea. At any rate, it really turned me off to the idea of using "corrections" for anything for a long time, as my dogs seemed very unhappy and nervous all of the time after that. They didn't seem to know when they would get a correction, and for what, since they got them so often for so many things that didn't deserve them, even from the dominance school of training.

So for a long time I went without using any form of corrections of any sort, as I worked through just rebuilding our relationship and trust. It took a long time, but I've finally earned their trust again and they're all much happier now. But the fact that these corrections were applied so liberally and inappropriately created a lot of problems, and also put me in the completely +R camp for a long time. But of course going that way exclusively didn't work either.Sure, they don't "listen" as well, but we have a much stronger foundation to build our training from than we did before. Since I started using Natural Dog Training, when I give a command, whether it's something as simple as sit, or a recall, there's that fire in their eyes that just wasn't there when working the other ways.

Anyway, I just find it interesting that so many trainers can get so caught up in doing things only one way. To the point that they lose sight of their ultimate goal, which is to help dogs and their humans. They become so engrossed in concept, that they lose their perspective and objectivity, thereby halting their own growth and potential for learning. As with any other discipline or field of study, one can get to a point where you can start to feel like you know all there is to know. And that can be a very slippery slope when you stop seeing things with an open mind.

Sang

Thanks, Sang.And you're right. It IS kind of hard ...

2008-07-09T17:59:00.000-07:00

Thanks, Sang.

And you're right. It IS kind of hard to "get." Right up until the moment you get it...

I was lucky. I got it right away with a dog named Mickey. It was the first dog I'd ever tried any of Kevin's techniques with, and I did it pretty badly, I must say -- without the proper build-up to the exercise (it was the "Twist and Shout"). But luckily for me and for Mickey, he had a good, solid, hardy temperament so he was able to handle the shock of the correction.

And I have to say, the shift in his focus and energy was immediately apparent. In fact, it was one of the most electrifying experiences I'd ever had in my life -- to have this super-aggressive dog that seemed intent on killing other dogs (he was a pit/Lab mix), suddenly, in half a hearbeat, turning all that wild, primal energy into the tennis ball I held out for him with my left hand, and yet being very, VERY careful not to bite my fingers but to ONLY bite the ball.

What a revelation. (And what a great dog!)

LCK

I think this discussion is an important one, as it...

2008-07-09T17:10:00.000-07:00

I think this discussion is an important one, as it is a gray area for so many people. So often the concept of mental associations and reducing tension can seem like the same thing, but they aren't. It took me quite a while to finally understand what Kevin was talking about in his book. But when I finally started to get it, my attitude towards my own dogs and how I was training them completely changed. And even if you "get it", it's incredibly difficult to explain to someone, especially someone who isn't open to it.

Like I said, it took me quite a while to get it. And I really wanted to get it. So I read about it, and thought about it, and pondered it for long periods of time, trying to figure out exactly what Kevin was talking about. I know, I'm a nerd. But after all that pondering I finally had a moment of clarity , so to speak, and it all started to make sense.

Now, understanding the idea and actually putting it to use can be challenging. And, as Lee is well aware, I've been sort of flying by the seat of my pants with this for the past number of months with my terrier mix Roxy. Who is opening up and slowly progressing btw. She and I have our good days and bad days. But we're getting there! :)

Through my own journey I've been learning and discovering lots of things, both about dogs and about myself. I've learned that chicken doesn't mean a thing when Roxy spots another dog. Sometimes she needs that "shock" to snap her out of it so I can redirect her into something else, like chasing and biting her tennis ball instead of trying to chase and bite that nice dog that's 40 feet away. I've learned that the pushing exercise really does work. And I've learned how to be patient and calm, and take things one step at a time rather than pushing too far too fast. There is only working and playing with the goal that one day she will no longer have issues.

I say all this because it wasn't until I started speaking with Lee and Kevin and started to understand what my dog was going through that I started to understand what I had to do to start helping her. And that's why I think it's so important to understand the difference between mental associations and reducing tension. Because how can you really fix something if you don't know how it works? So keep on posting this stuff Lee. It's really good stuff:)

Sang.

The reason wild wolves don't do the alpha roll, bu...

2008-07-09T08:02:00.000-07:00

The reason wild wolves don't do the alpha roll, but captive wolves and some domesticated dogs DO is basically that the behaviors of captive wolves and domesticated dogs are not NATURAL. In captive wolves nearly all of their supposedly hierarchical behaviors are the result of captivity stress. When a domesticated dog does anything which smacks of dominance, etc., it's always due to stress. It's not a natural or normal social behavior.

(There's more on this topic in the "Proper Way to Do an Alpha Roll" thread.)

But I think you're right about the changing dynamic in the training marketplace. I've always thought that one reason for Cesar Millan's popularity is that it's a backlash against the ineffectiveness, not to mention ideologically superior attitude, of +R trainers. Don't get me wrong, I think their ideology IS superior, but unfortunately their techniques aren't effective enough to warrant such snootiness.

Similar to the dominance trainers of old, whose excuse to clients was always, "You're not acting alpha enough!" the mantra of +R trainers is "Up the value of your treats!"

What's my mantra? I don't know. I'm told by Andrea Arden that it has something to do with playing tug-of-war with your dog, always letting her win, and praising her for winning ...

LCK

Hi again,I also ordered Kevin's book and look forw...

2008-07-09T06:58:00.000-07:00

Hi again,
I also ordered Kevin's book and look forward to reading it. I should add that I went through 4 trainers until I found a trainer who was able to help me with Roman and my other dog, Tikka (you can read a bit about that here:

http://dogg-ma.blogspot.com/2008/05/good-dogs.html

And, you are exactly right-it was more about Roman (and Tikka) reducing their anxiety/stress than learning what was appropriate/inappropriate behavior-In fact, my trainer asked me "Would you say your dog is anxious?" My first response was No, since he always seems so confident...but really, he WAS anxious/stressed or he would not have acted that way.

I have a real problem with R+ trainers that will take on a dog like mine and, when it becomes clear the dog is not really improving they don't refer or offer alternatives. Just keep up the treat feeding at a distance and manage, manage, manage while always carrying treats and using a GL! I was told my dog would probably always have this and could not go to dog parks. I was paying hundreds of dollars and this is what I ended up with?

I think my dog and our relationship are an example that fair corrections, and dare I say, use of a prong collar, can help a dog overcome leash aggression without intimidating or harming the dog physically or mentally. I feel our bond is stronger.

I am now sensing a shift in the training community. My trainer, and others like him, say their business has never been better because most of their client base come to them after they did not get results with a positive only trainer. While I still see a lot of GLs out there, I'm not getting the nasty looks I once did for using a prong and people actually stop me to ask how I have such good recall on my dogs and I don't use treats.

I do have another question for you and I apologize this is so long. You mention that wild wolves don't alpha roll. I don't know about wolves, but dogs certainly do. In fact, Roman was put on his back and held there with one paw by a Mal/Shep playmate the other day. Their play escalated and in a second their were a few flashes of teeth and Roman was on his back, the other dog staring him down. This could have turned ugly, but the other owner and I were calm and with the help of a wave that crashed into the dogs (we were at the beach), the incident resolved and the dogs resumed play.

While I don't alpha roll, I will put my dogs in a down/stay on their sides for certain things. I've never had to force this with more than a finger touch. The dogs immediately calm down and we can resume whatever it was we were doing (I've used this when Roman or Tikka tried to charge a dog off leash).

Anyway, thanks for all your information. I orderd Nose for Murder and look forward to reading it soon.