Comments on Lee Charles Kelley: Cesar Millan: Pack Leader or Predator? (updated)

I am curious about what your thoughts are regardin...

2010-01-02T15:15:03.784-08:00

I am curious about what your thoughts are regarding a tamed captive wolf and your philosophy of pack leader vs. predator. I've worked with captive wolves for the better part of 30 year and I am one like you who believes that humans are not alpha over either dogs or wolves nor are they in a pack with them.

In fact, to that extent, it goes along somewhat with one of the methods of working with wolves and that is to never put yourself in a position that would trigger aggressive/predatory behavior in a wolf. In simpler terms, build trust and respect with the wolf, never hurt the wolf and the wolf will not want to hurt you. In this case youare not portraying yourself as predator, prey, or pack leader.

Handle the wolf aggressively and in a domineering manner and when the female matures at two and the male at three you'll eventually trigger an attack.

In my experience I don't think that a captive wolf looking up at a human thinks of it as a predator or as an alpha which alters it's behavior to make it want to stop dead in it's tracks. I've seen captive wolves attack people both from the front and from the back.

Look forward to your thoughts.

thanks

Oh, I forgot. I don't think you are not being en...

2009-12-28T10:46:41.247-08:00

Oh, I forgot.

I don't think you are not being enough of a leader Lee. I have never met you face-to-face and never seen you work with your dog. But hey, if you say your dog does what you tell him under ANY circumstance, then you are doing something right. And that's all it really matters.

Folks, if you can get your dog under your control around other dogs, cats, kids, the mail carrier and even from a distance and off-leash, then you can be certain you either have a great dog, or did lots of great training.

Any moron can beat or bribe a dog to death and call it dog training. I do it by relying on my skills, instinct and experience. Most importantly, you gotta know when to push and when to back off. By pushing, I mean not just pushing the poor dogs but also the lovely owners. :-)

Hi, Kevin, Thanks for your kind comments. I've lo...

2009-12-28T08:23:54.632-08:00

Hi, Kevin,

Thanks for your kind comments. I've looked at a few things on your website and it's pretty cool. Lots of good information.

It seems to me that this piece, "Pack Leader or Predator," is an important article for you, though, because of what you wrote here:

"The reason Lee Charles Kelley is as effective as he is with his style of training and knows what he's talking about, is because he does everything else right with his dogs."

I think you should go back to the video on your website, where you're working with a pit bull mix who's aggressing toward two Labs, because from what I see of the result (and I'm not clear on how you got there), this is a perfect example of a dog who sees his trainer as a predator, not a pack leader. (Hint: the dog looks scared of you...)

As I've written here in this article, "Yes, it’s true that in any animal group there will be one member who is more experienced, more knowledgeable, and who has more animal magnetism than the others. And most members of the group will tend to be drawn to or gravitate toward him or her. But animal magnetism—which is felt on a visceral level—is something quite different from rank, leadership, and authority—which are purely mental constructs."

So instead of saying that I'm "doing everything else right" (which I take to mean I'm not being enough of a "leader" for your taste), I would take another look at both your video and this article. Maybe you can see something I saw years ago, back when I still disagreed with Kevin Behan about the whole dominance and pack leader thing.

I look forward to reading your book.

LCK

Hey Lee, It's Kevin. Not Behan, but the new kid o...

2009-12-27T23:48:31.622-08:00

Hey Lee,

It's Kevin. Not Behan, but the new kid on the block from Dog Secrets. I find your blog pretty fascinating and agree with everything you are saying. That is rare coming from me. :-)

Although I'm pretty sure you'll like my book too, but may disagree with some parts. Especially the parts that I refer to how to become your dog's leader. I don't really use the term alpha though. The chapter is called: How to Get Your Black Belt in Dog Psychology.
Catchy huh?

Now pay a very close attention folks. The reason Lee Charles Kelley is as effective as he is with his style of training and knows what he's talking about, is because he does everything else right with his dogs.

You see, you can let the dog get away with a few things here and there and even let him win, but as long as you do the 'majority' of the things correctly, that's all it really matters and the dog will get it. What Lee didn't mention was he doesn't let the dog walk all over him and yet still be able to pull it off. That's not gonna happen.

Think of it as playing with your kids. Do you always let them win? Well, an effective parent would mix it up a bit. It builds their character.

Some of you will get this and some of you won't.

Thanks again Lee and keep up the good work. I am like you in a lot of ways. People either love me or hate my guts. There is no middle ground. :-)

Think of it as staying in shape. You can break and even bend the rules by eating unhealthy once in a while. But as long as you do everything else right the majority of the time, you'll stay fit and healthy.

The other factor about Lee is he doesn't believe about 'over training' a dog. I am like that too. I want the dog to be a dog for crying out loud and not a soldier or a robot. You gotta be your dog's buddy, his protector AND his teacher.

I can't believe that I found this blog post the da...

2009-07-01T17:55:58.712-07:00

I can't believe that I found this blog post the day after I wrote this blog post: http://librarianlee.blogspot.com/2009/06/meet-bear-and-some-thoughts-on-being.html

Then I read the other comments and while I feel like your words are more in harmony with something I just "know" - there are others who would scare folks like me. I better get that big dog IN CONTROL AND BE HIS LEADER NOW or I am others in my community are in great danger! So, I'll keep reading your blog and thanks. I'd just like to feel more confident in my moving forward.

Oh and another thing... Summer is only 4+ yrs old,...

2009-06-03T19:23:48.480-07:00

Oh and another thing... Summer is only 4+ yrs old, and I will wait until I am a little more settled, but my next dog will be a working line Belgian Malinois to train in Schutzhund. (I'm going to ask the trainer to help me source for a reputable breeder - there's one in Thailand who looks good on paper, I might consider visiting their kennel to check them out some time next year.) You betcha I'm going to using Lee's and Kevin's methods to work with the future dog. And I'm sure Summer will enjoy having a little brother to boss around! :)

Ooh yeah, sorry forgot to state that, ha! Yes my c...

2009-06-03T18:06:03.908-07:00

Ooh yeah, sorry forgot to state that, ha! Yes my comments were in response to TZ's comments, not Lee's.

SummerInBrooklyn wrote: "By your theory, she shoul...

2009-06-03T10:13:14.898-07:00

SummerInBrooklyn wrote: "By your theory, she should be walking all over me now. Alpha is a myth. I let my dog walk in front of me, I let her win at tug, I let her eat before I do, but the girl knows which side her meat is buttered, thank you very much."

I think readers should know that your last paragraph, particularly the part I've quoted above, is directed at TZ, not moi.

But I love your descriptions of Summer's behavior, particularly where she rappels off your chest!

What a wonderfully fun doggie she is!

LCK

Jumping in here very quickly... I know a trainer h...

2009-06-03T09:14:49.454-07:00

Jumping in here very quickly... I know a trainer here in Singapore where I moved to who trains ONLY working dogs in PROTECTION. Not even Schutzhund. He works with individuals who want protection animals who will learn how to bite without a sleeve. Who will do a fearsome hold and bark and attack on cue. He helps with the local K9 units. He trains Belgian Malinois, Dutchies, GSDs - working line dogs. I once had a very long conversation with him about training and building drive and working with working line dogs. There were many things I took away from the conversation, but the one thing I loved most was when he said in protection work, the dogs MUST have a high play drive and to them all protection work is a form of play. He told me he plays tug with his dogs and he lets them win a lot. Not all the time but a lot. And he always takes the tug away before the dog has lost interest. I didn't talk to him about getting down on the dog's level to wrestle with the dog, but I won't be surprised if he advocates that. He's been training for 20 yrs now. Not all schutzhund trainers are about the e-collar and being "dominant".

BTW I have a Malinois mix who is spazzy drived but when I do play tug with her (which is virtually every night) I let her win, and I fall on the floor and let her jump on me, and then I tell her Out and she spits out the tug, I tell her Down and she slams her belly on the floor, I tell her stay as I run away and then I tell her to come get the tug and she flies directly at my face and rappels off my chest to grab the tug. And after that she thinks nothing of letting me take food from her feed towel (I feed raw) and she doesn't grumble when I push her further down the sofa because she's a space hogger. By your theory, she should be walking all over me now. Alpha is a myth. I let my dog walk in front of me, I let her win at tug, I let her eat before I do, but the girl knows which side her meat is buttered, thank you very much.

TZ: "Look into the breeding aspects in wolves." “...

2009-06-01T16:03:44.265-07:00

TZ: "Look into the breeding aspects in wolves."

“The alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack ... Thus calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent ... as alpha.” –- David Mech

TZ: " there is some sort of structure..."

I covered this in a number of my other blog articles. So please read them before you try to make arguments here.

Most people can't wrap their minds around the idea that structure doesn't have to come from the top down, it can (and does) come from within the group itself. In a nutshell, every member of the pack makes choices based on his or her own temperament and past experiences. When you calculate these choices over time, a structure emerges. So the pack is not being controlled by any one member at any one time; the pack is constantly structuring and re-structuring itsSELF.

TZ: "Play in schutzhund is all about building drive in the dog, so that it will work for you via a ball.”

Again, you haven't been around this blog much or you'd realize that we talk a lot about building drive in our dogs. But the ball or tug toy is really just a transitional object, which allows the dog to download his drive into his handler.

What every SchutzHund trainer wants, whether he knows it or not, is for the dog to be plugging her drive energy into him. And by getting down on the dog's level, you overcome the social resistance she feels because we're vertical beings. When that resistance disappears (or is largely eliminated), she feels safer about plugging her drive directly into us, and is therefore more obedient. It’s simple math.

Kevin Behan recommends similar exercises. And his background is in training attack dogs for police depts. in NY and New England.

TZ: "watch puppies submitting to other puppies. ... How do you explain this?"

If you had read the articles I suggested, you would already know. Google "Is Your Dog Dominant?” In the meantime, your interpretation of the behavior is just that: an INTERPRETATION. It's not what the puppies are really doing.

TZ: "How do you know I have not tryed this? I have indeed, and I almost the dog thought he was king of the castle, then started to take too much."

Please proofread your posts before hitting "publish," okay?

TZ: "I work with working dogs, not Dalmations."

Okay, this is *my* blog; no snottiness allowed. Also, 1) it's Dalmatian, not "Dalmation." 2) if you think training a Malinois is hard, just try a Dalmatian. 3) Dalmatians ARE working dogs. 4) I've done this exercise with all types of dogs.

TZ: "If Cesar was a predator in the eyes of these dogs? Why wouldn't they just run away from him in the house? … They submit."

Fear doesn't always cause a dog (or any other animal to run). But since there is no such thing as submission (not in dogs or wolves at least), they're definitely not submitting either: they're just exhibiting a non-threatening posture. Also, they’re almost always in an enclosed environment so they can’t escape. I’ve never seen him work with a dog outdoors, in an open space, off lead. Plus for all we know, some of them DO run away, we just never see it on TV.

Besides, dogs have a long evolutionary history of living in very close proximity to the most dangerous animal on the planet: homo sapiens. And the dogs that survived to pass on their genes did so by being as non-threatening toward humans as possible.

Please don't submit a new post until you've read more about this, either from my other articles, for from a whole host of other experts. I’m happy to clarify things, but you just seem to want to pick a fight. Go someplace else to do that.

Also take a second look at Cesar. Most of the time when he says *he's* acting "calm," his eyes actually show pent-up rage. And when he points to a dog he's just intimidated and says, "See how calm she is," take a moment to look at how frozen and desperate her eyes are.

Good luck,

LCK

I don't agree with much of your comments to be hon...

2009-06-01T13:27:57.806-07:00

I don't agree with much of your comments to be honest.

OK, so you think there is no alpha? Look into the breeding aspects in wolves, and you will soon find out about alpha and beta wolves. I'm in no way saying the alpha is the top wolf 100% of the time, but there is some sort of structure in place.

I'll go further, you didn't address the question about playing in Schutzhund. You just avoided the question by saying there is no alpha. Play in schutzhund is all about building drive in the dog, so that it will work for you via a ball. Not getting down and letting the dog be the "PAPA".

"There is no such thing as dominance and submission. They're also myths."
hahaha are you serious?
Watch this video, specifically at around 5 min into the video and watch puppies submitting to other puppies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNQuqY1oXpE

How do you explain this behaviour? Play fighting?

"Maybe. Maybe not. If the dogs are well-trained it's doubtful they would do anything but enjoy the experience." Ever see police dogs doing this Lee? Hell no, because they would get there face eaten in most cases.

How do you know I have not tryed this? I have indeed, and I almost the dog thought he was king of the castle, then started to take too much. I'm not saying every dog is going to bite you if you play with it on the ground, but some will take it the wrong way.... I work with working dogs, not Dalmations.

I have 2 more things I would like to add.

1st. If Cesar was a predator in the eyes of these dogs? Why wouldn't they just run away from him in the house? Watch the show and see, even when they are not on the leash, they don't run. They submit.

2nd. I train working dogs all week, these dogs are not your normal shelter dogs. They are breed to have serious drives, so before you assume that every dog loves to get down and play with PAPA, please work a working Belgian Malinois, or a czech shepherd, and then tell me if your PAPA theory still holds up.
Working dogs, and pet house dogs are a whole different story.

Peace

TZ: "your dog has a terrible recall ... I have a p...

2009-06-01T07:42:04.159-07:00

TZ: "your dog has a terrible recall ... I have a problem respecting your opinion."

Thanks for contributing to the blog.

Here's a little more CONTEXT:

This event took place 15 years ago.

Freddie had a terrific recall -- he could turn on a dime and come racing back to me at full speed when we were in the park or at the dog run, I could call him away from a bitch in heat with no problem -- but I had gotten lax when we were out on our last walk at night.

TZ: "Why is it so important to play in Schutzhund? Not to get on the dogs level and let it be alpha!"

There is no such thing as alpha. That's a myth.

"I know plenty of Schutzhund dogs who would never be given the chance to dominate over the handler..."

There is no such thing as dominance and submission. They're also myths.

Check out my blog articles at PsychologyToday.com: "Is Your Dog Dominant?" parts I, II, and III.

TZ: "some of those dogs would take advantage of it, and take things to the next level."

Maybe. Maybe not. If the dogs are well-trained it's doubtful they would do anything but enjoy the experience.

TZ: "3rd. PAPA, and puppies playing is one thing. Handler and working dog is another. For your average pet this might be a way to connect with them , but not most of the dogs I work with."

Since you've never tried it, you have no way of knowing; your argument is not on solid ground, particularly since you still believe in dominance and "alpha." I have tried it, not just with Freddie but with a lot of the dogs I've worked with. And it has always made them more obedient and has always quickened their response times.

TZ: "I like your idea, because I don't think there is a pack leader either, but I didn't agree with some of the reasonings of your argument."

Right, except the ideas of dominance and submission and the "alpha" wolf are part-and-parcel with the idea of the "pack leader." These are *all* myths.

But that's okay, TZ. It's hard for us to let go of our beliefs.

Thanks again for taking part here.
LCK

I enjoyed your post, however I see many flaws in y...

2009-05-31T18:57:43.273-07:00

I enjoyed your post, however I see many flaws in your ideas.

First of all, the fact that you are a dog trainer, and your personal dog has a terrible recall, I have a problem respecting your opinion. "slowly come trotting back about halfway or, if I was lucky, a maybe a little more."

2nd. Why is it so important to play in Schutzhund? Not to get on the dogs level and let it be alpha! Come on, ball+movement=preydrive
drive = good for work (schutzhund)
I know plenty of Schutzhund dogs who would never be given the chance to dominate over the handler... Why, because some of those dogs would take advantage of it, and take things to the next level.

3rd. PAPA, and puppies playing is one thing. Handler and working dog is another. For your average pet this might be a way to connect with them , but not most of the dogs I work with.

I could go on, but don't have time. Like I said, I like your idea, because I don't think there is a pack leader either, but I didn't agree with some of the reasonings of your argument.
Best regards.

Hi, Kasha, Thanks for the comment. And thanks for...

2009-05-29T07:49:54.770-07:00

Hi, Kasha,

Thanks for the comment. And thanks for the link to your blog, and all the photos of Africa. She is a beautiful animal!

LCK

Wow! This is a great blog! Thanks for the training...

2009-05-28T21:35:36.715-07:00

Wow! This is a great blog! Thanks for the training tips. I thought I had it going on, but you sir, know your stuff! Very cool. I will add you to my blog list and keep in touch.
http://trainingboerboels.blogspot.com
Kasha and Africa